PIK

[atuk]

[quote=viscount post_id=5223 time=<a href="tel:1638457061">1638457061</a> user_id=395]
Glad you said the terminal and not the airport.

I’ve been saying that for years. For all of its other aviation functions PIK is unique and invaluable to Scotland. No one would want us to lose that to England or Ireland or wherever as long as the terminal ops were gone.

It’s going to be even more strategically important to Scotland in the future, as our air freight hub and as one of our military facilities, I’d wager.
[/quote]


unique, certainly. A massive tax loss definitely. Invaluable? Where is the paint shop...let me see.....Dublin and Shannon. Where is the likes of Lufthansa Teknik? Dublin!
Ireland leaves Scotland in the starting blocks where MRO is concerned. For all your comments about the loss to the Scottish economy it simply doesn’t add up. Or does the possible loss of Cambo compensate?

[Clive]

[quote=viscount post_id=5223 time=<a href="tel:1638457061">1638457061</a> user_id=395]
Glad you said the terminal and not the airport.

I’ve been saying that for years. For all of its other aviation functions PIK is unique and invaluable to Scotland. No one would want us to lose that to England or Ireland or wherever as long as the terminal ops were gone.

It’s going to be even more strategically important to Scotland in the future, as our air freight hub and as one of our military facilities, I’d wager.

unique, certainly. A massive tax loss definitely. Invaluable? Where is the paint shop...let me see.....Dublin and Shannon. Where is the likes of Lufthansa Teknik? Dublin!
Ireland leaves Scotland in the starting blocks where MRO is concerned. For all your comments about the loss to the Scottish economy it simply doesn’t add up. Or does the possible loss of Cambo compensate?
[/quote]

Tax loss? The economic balance sheet has two sides. Back to school.

Unique to Scotland. Yes it is. We want to deliberately lose that? No we don’t.

The loss of Cambo would compensate? We are at a loss as to what you mean.

[atuk]

Okay, here we go.

A state owned, loss making, white elephant. Despite the years of BAA (also state owned at the time) and the millions of pounds poured into it over decades PIK has never cracked it.

Scottish Aviation then BAE then closure. Narrow body long haul flights, many of them charters replaced by wide bodied aircraft at low frequency... Pan Am, Air Canada, British Caledonian, Laker Airways, Northwest, Highland Express all have long departed the scene. Volta Dixon, Thomson, Thomas Cook, Club Travel 2000 and lastly Seguro Holidays all operated charter flights to Mediterranean destinations, mainly Spain, and all have withdrawn or collapsed. Nobody was able to make a lasting profit.

Fast forward to privatisation and change of ownership to Stagecoach who pulled out despite trying to link bus services to attract better connectivity, then Infratil who sold out after racking up heavy losses.

What does that tell you?

Despite trying to sell this cash devouring millstone there were no takers from the private sector - not even rapacious private equity companies who perfect and delight in the asset stripping pile on the debt business model of short term gain for long term pain.

So we have what we have. A state owned asset which can even make the dark days of British Leyland Motor Company look good. And we all know what happened to them.

Ryanair the sole operator of passenger services with two based aircraft serving destinations catering for outbound tourism which are easily covered by EZY, LS, TOM from other private sector airports. If PIK was so attractive don’t you think they would already be flying there?
So an Irish Airline, which contributes zero tax to the UK economy, operates from a state subsidised airport at minimal operating costs. These aircraft and staff could easily be redployed elsewhere in the Central Belt.

As for cargo - low frequency, no Scottish hub; surely it could be accommodated elsewhere with better connectivity?

Aviation companies are off site - like RR at Inchinnan - they don’t require a runway.

This leaves military. Perhaps it really is time to remove the rose tinted spectacles, wake up to harsh reality, apply the economic slide rule and close this anachronism for good.

[Clive]

Okay, here we go.

A state owned, loss making, white elephant. Despite the years of BAA (also state owned at the time) and the millions of pounds poured into it over decades PIK has never cracked it.

Scottish Aviation then BAE then closure. Narrow body long haul flights, many of them charters replaced by wide bodied aircraft at low frequency... Pan Am, Air Canada, British Caledonian, Laker Airways, Northwest, Highland Express all have long departed the scene. Volta Dixon, Thomson, Thomas Cook, Club Travel 2000 and lastly Seguro Holidays all operated charter flights to Mediterranean destinations, mainly Spain, and all have withdrawn or collapsed. Nobody was able to make a lasting profit.

Fast forward to privatisation and change of ownership to Stagecoach who pulled out despite trying to link bus services to attract better connectivity, then Infratil who sold out after racking up heavy losses.

What does that tell you?

Despite trying to sell this cash devouring millstone there were no takers from the private sector - not even rapacious private equity companies who perfect and delight in the asset stripping pile on the debt business model of short term gain for long term pain.

So we have what we have. A state owned asset which can even make the dark days of British Leyland Motor Company look good. And we all know what happened to them.

Ryanair the sole operator of passenger services with two based aircraft serving destinations catering for outbound tourism which are easily covered by EZY, LS, TOM from other private sector airports. If PIK was so attractive don’t you think they would already be flying there?
So an Irish Airline, which contributes zero tax to the UK economy, operates from a state subsidised airport at minimal operating costs. These aircraft and staff could easily be redployed elsewhere in The a Central Belt.

As for cargo - low frequency, no Scottish hub; surely it could be accommodated elsewhere with better connectivity?

Aviation companies are off site - like RR at Inchinnan - they don’t require a runway.

This leaves military. Perhaps it really is time to remove the rose tinted spectacles, wake up to harsh reality, apply the economic slide rule and close this anachronism for good.

We agree about Ryanair and closing the perma-loss-making pax ops.

Thatcherite’s would but no quality government would throw the high quality, high tech jobs of that localised aerospace cluster on the scrap heap nor the thousands involved in the supply chain and the aviation services.

That’s why a buyer with a development plan is being sought.

As I said before, the contribution in productivity, earnings and tax take of the airport and attached campus far outweighs whatever costs you think the public purse is incurring. Clue - a sum between zero and any loan capital write off after the sale price. So between zero and very little is the cost of preserving this strategic asset and its continued productivity to the Scottish purse.

[atuk]

Clive, explain to me exactly which companies are thriving, what their ultimate ownership is and how much they directly pay in UK tax? Furthermore exactly how much has been given out in Scottish Enterprise grants, local council inducements and stripping these out of the final totals what would the ultimate profit / loss be.

Exactly where do these highly skilled jobs lie, how many are there and could that finance have been ploughed into continuing aviation businesses (Rolls Royce being one example) instead?

It’s all very well shouting out about the “benefits” but what it actually boils down to is state subsidy. Something that PIK and its tenants are well used to and remain hooked on.

[jetblue497]

Just shutting the pax operation down is not enough. All COMMERCIAL airline operations should be closed - maybe even the FBOs (if the airfield was in private hands then it would the the owners choice as to whether that kind of business is viable). Leave it open for the private industries to thrive and expand onto the real estate freed up (terminal/cargo/short runway all closing would double available space just about) - if that fails then market forces will have finally won out, a situation PIK has not faced in my lifetime I think.

Leaving cargo ops in PIK is a disaster - too many on this forum dont realize how much of a bonus having a cargo operation at GLA would be. GLA cargo goes on a lorry and heads south for the most part - that cargo going on a flight from GLA helps pay for said flight and add to profitability.

[atuk]

Just shutting the pax operation down is not enough. All COMMERCIAL airline operations should be closed - maybe even the FBOs (if the airfield was in private hands then it would the the owners choice as to whether that kind of business is viable). Leave it open for the private industries to thrive and expand onto the real estate freed up (terminal/cargo/short runway all closing would double available space just about) - if that fails then market forces will have finally won out, a situation PIK has not faced in my lifetime I think.

Leaving cargo ops in PIK is a disaster - too many on this forum dont realize how much of a bonus having a cargo operation at GLA would be. GLA cargo goes on a lorry and heads south for the most part - that cargo going on a flight from GLA helps pay for said flight and add to profitability.

Thank you. I’m glad somebody else sees sense regards PIK. I fully agree with your statement and don’t feel such a lone voice in the wilderness.

[Bearsden]

There are a number of threads going at the moment which probably need to be consolidated . . . What future post COVID-19 for the three Central Scotland airports?

This is the PIK thread and one thing which makes PIK different is quite simply it was acquired for a £1 (Stagecoach and Infratil lost their money) and has accumulated a government loan plus unpaid interest of around £50m (annual interest at say 3% = £1.5m)

Both EDI & GLA were bought for staggering sums of money on the basis of future earnings but with it comes debt - AGS overall had £757m of external debt and £196m of shareholder debt at 31 Dec 2020 while the shareholders injected a further £35m of equity and £35m of debt on 18 Jun 2021 (so annual interest at say 3% on £988m [£757m + £196m + £35m] = £29.6m)

EDI had external debt of £1,113m at 31 Dec 2020 so £33.4m annual cash profit required just to service the debt

With the continued high level of US military traffic in 2020/21 I expect PIK's accounts (which will be published in the next four weeks) to be around a £2m loss after interest

[viscount]

Leaving cargo ops in PIK is a disaster - too many on this forum dont realize how much of a bonus having a cargo operation at GLA would be. GLA cargo goes on a lorry and heads south for the most part - that cargo going on a flight from GLA helps pay for said flight and add to profitability.
[/quote]

Could GLA or Edi handle fully loaded 748 All year round and all weather without disrupting the passenger side.

[Bearsden]

Leaving cargo ops in PIK is a disaster - too many on this forum dont realize how much of a bonus having a cargo operation at GLA would be. GLA cargo goes on a lorry and heads south for the most part - that cargo going on a flight from GLA helps pay for said flight and add to profitability.

Could GLA or Edi handle fully loaded 748 All year round and all weather without disrupting the passenger side.
[/quote]

I suspect not . . . . I don't think we have any B748 aircrew on the forum to confirm

But also remember An-124s are frequently used for significant oil & gas and other large engineering equipment worldwide